A noun, a verb, and "Hanoi Hilton".

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And yet, such an experience is in fact a wealth of points in favor of being Commander in Chief over just about ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that Obama has under his belt. Are we or are we not in a war right now?

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Two wars, actually -- one that was ill-planned from the beginning, and one with poor follow-through.

Being locked in a tiger cage for five years certainly builds character, as well as revealing it -- no doubt, McCain is one tough customer. But I don't see how that experience gives him any particular insight into the geopolitics of the 21st century. That observation was Wesley Clark's "you're right, but you shouldn't oughta said that" moment of this campaign.

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As a student of history I'd call it one war. There are elements and support going to the other side in BOTH locations. The Pacific and European Theatres of WWII were NOT different wars, at all.


Being locked in a tiger cage for five years certainly builds character, as well as revealing it -- no doubt, McCain is one tough customer.

There's also the whole officer in charge of a training squadron, operations on the Forrestall is also interesting to note (the REALLY big fire) shows character which he continued after repeated beatings at the hands of the NVA. Locked in a tiger cage is not a very good characterization. Not when he refuses to be a propaganda pawn at his very CLEAR personal expense.

Then there's operational experience in charge of a training squadron.

That observation was Wesley Clark's "you're right, but you shouldn't oughta said that" moment of this campaign.


Gen Clark is NOT a good judge to cite.

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The Pacific and European theaters weren't fought against two enemies who had little contact with each other and begun a year and a half apart, with some of our allies engaged in one and opposed to the other.

On McCain's war record, yes, it displays character. I'm not belittling that. But that is where its importance ends. It is not in itself a qualification for the presidency.

On Gen. Clark, commanding NATO forces is quite a bit closer to the duties of a president than commanding a fighter squadron is.

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Unless he is tapping codes on walls or actively being tortured while in office I don't see how the experience is relevant. 40 years ago he was a damned strong person who lived through hell, that is admirable. But then he also left his wife and children to marry an heiress, used his experiences to gain power and influence, and then voted FOR allowing torture to be used by the US government.

Is he going to tell the story of his prisoner of war days at every state dinner? Every arms negotiation? Can he deal openly and fairly with the governments of SE Asia?

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Yeah, seems to me that if you think it's good your president knows how to act once he's arrested and imprisoned, you might be looking for the wrong qualities in a leader. Just sayin'.

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But then he also left his wife and children to marry an heiress, used his experiences to gain power and influence,

It's a general given that the abrupt change from being a POW to US life again throws a LOT of marriages on the rocks. Just being MIA for a time can do that. It's hard to judge such issues from a far.

He was beaten upon capture (violation of GCs), then when his status as a son of a Major military officer was discovered, given some medical care. Then, he was offered a ticket home, specifically to show how he was privileged and to demoralize his fellow POWs, when he refused to be repatriated as part of the propaganda war, he was beaten MORE. He specifically refused to throw his fellow aviators under the bus.

He also risked life and limb to safe a fellow aviator on the Forrestall.

Is he going to tell the story of his prisoner of war days at every state dinner? Every arms negotiation? Can he deal openly and fairly with the governments of SE Asia?

Actually, when I'm around soldiers that have stories to tell, they get asked to tell them. By me and by other soldiers. It's what you do. It's history. It's significant and has a HELL of a lot more import than tales of fixing the roof or your bad day at work. As to how he can deal with the RVN government, good question . If he's done visits since, then probably. IF he has a grudge still, I'd not blame him. There's some accountability that was left unsaid in that context.

Every arms negotiation?

I'd expect he'd deal from a position of solid resolve which is warranted since we're top dog even over Russia.

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The issue isn't that his first marriage collapsed, but that he began his relationship with Cindy while still married to the first Mrs. McCain. Which is a minor point to me; shit happens between adults. But we still haven't heard the end of Bill Clinton cheating on his wife more than a decade ago, so the Republicans have to expect some blue-nosed blowback.

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