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I see a pattern here ... [Feb. 8th, 2011|02:15 pm]
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Item: The "Protect Life Act," HR358, would allow hospital emergency rooms to refuse to terminate a pregnancy -- even if that refusal kills the pregnant woman. This would be, as far as I know, the first law that allows refusal of life-saving care in the name of "conscience," let alone in the name of "protecting life."

Item: Fueled by yet another wave of fraudulent hidden-camera videos, House Republicans are on the warpath against Planned Parenthood. PP offers cancer screening, HIV tests, contraception and advice on same -- and abortions, which account for 3% of their activities. That 3% is what matters to the House Republicans, who are pressing to cut off funding to PP and have not suggested an alternative provider for the other 97% of their services.

Item: The "No Taxpayer Funding for Abortion Act," HR3, has had one noxious provision cut out -- one that would fund abortions to victims of "forcible rape" but not, you know, all those friendly rapes. Still in the bill: Employers whose insurance plans cover abortion would lose their tax deduction, with the (intended) result that employers won't offer abortion coverage.

Item: During the lame-duck session of Congress in December, House Republicans killed a bill that would have committed the US to fight child marriages. The bill passed the Senate unanimously, but House Republicans feared that the NGOs receiving grants might fund abortions.

Conclusion: Republicans are perfectly willing to restrict women's access to health care in the name of restricting access to abortion.
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Comments:
[User Picture]From: montieth
2011-02-08 07:52 pm (UTC)

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Gosh, you think maybe this concept that Congress can regulate ANYTHING it wants to is biting people in the ass?

As to forcible rapes... can you give me a legal example of a non-forcible rape?
[User Picture]From: notgruntled
2011-02-08 08:47 pm (UTC)

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Gosh, you think maybe this concept that Congress can regulate ANYTHING it wants to is biting people in the ass?

Not really applicable here. What's at issue is a weakening of the requirement that hospitals provide emergency care; use of government funds for health care; and a bill to use foreign aid funds to stop human rights abuses.

As to forcible rapes... can you give me a legal example of a non-forcible rape?

Roofies. Incest. Statutory rape. Rape of someone who is unconscious or mentally incompetent to consent. Intimidation.

Of course, any rape is, by definition, a violent crime; the phrase "forcible rape" doesn't have a precise legal definition, but even in its vagueness and the inevitable court tests, had it passed it would have achieved the goal of stopping women from having abortions.

[User Picture]From: montieth
2011-02-09 12:22 am (UTC)

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Not really applicable here.

Yes, actually, it is. If you're going to speak about Congress exerting it's power to control people's lives, then you need to examine if Congress can even DO it in the first place. You don't decide based on JUST if it's a good idea. You decide also based on IF Congress may do what it wilt.

Obviously, since you're of the Congress can write any law it so decides, Constitutional limits not-withstanding, you're going to disregard that avenue, as you have, but cases like Printz v US, US v Lopez, SEC v Citizens United, ACLU v Reno, etc, etc will show you that your view is in fact NOT the case. Congress very much is supposed to be bound by limits in the Constitution. Multiple cases have shown such.

Roofies. Incest. Statutory rape. Rape of someone who is unconscious or mentally incompetent to consent. Intimidation.

Use of roofies would in fact be forcible rape, in Georgia, Felony Rape (16-6-1). The use of the drug is the forcible portion. If I incapacitate someone with a drug, that is a form of assault just the same as if I clubbed them over the back of the skull. See also Dr Mark Adams of Athens-Clarke County.

Intimidation through threat of force in order to commit a rape would also be forcible rape. It doesn't require the use of force, just the threat to enforce compliance. In fact, the use of such force would be additional charges over and above the rape, aggravated assault in this case. Robbery with a threat of a bomb doesn't become burglary or petty theft because a criminal didn't actually use the force intended to coerce cooperation.

In the case of statutory rape, one can hardly claim that a torrid affair between a woman under the age of consent and a man who is just over constitutes a form of violence. They consented, quite clearly, it's not considered violent however because the consent is still there.

Girl A is 1 day before her age of consent birthday. She has sex with BF who is over the age of consent. This is violent to you?
Girl B is 1 day after her age of consent birthday. She has sex with BF who is the same age as BF of Girl A. This is not violent.

Sorry, not a violent crime in this capacity. That's why it's statutory and NOT felony rape. Note the big push to institute the Romeo and Juliet law in Georgia. If the case of statutory rape were so violent, do you think such a movement would have had such bipartisan support? I think not.

You'll note if you read that Bill (HR 3) in question, that incest was still broken out as a reason FOR paying for the Abortion Federally. Sec 309,(1) if the pregnancy occurred because the pregnant female was the subject of an act of forcible rape or, if a minor, an act of incest...

Details, details, details.

So, it looks like incest was covered as a separate grouping as was if the woman was a minor and in the case of statutory rape. So, which class of "rape" wasn't getting covered again?

Of course, any rape is, by definition, a violent crime; the phrase "forcible rape" doesn't have a precise legal definition, but even in its vagueness and the inevitable court tests, had it passed it would have achieved the goal of stopping women from having abortions.


You'll find that if you look at actual legal code, that the term forcible rape is very easily synonymous with FELONY rape. If I'm not mistaken, this is old English Common law basics, probably something that MOST other states have in common. It is a form of sexual assault. Assault implies force does it not?

Here's the legal code for Ga since you clearly didn't actually research this point at all, but then noone else complaining about the Forcible Rape language did either.

16-6-1. Rape.
(a) A person commits the offense of rape when he has carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will. Carnal knowledge in rape occurs when there is any penetration of the female sex organ by the male sex organ.


You'll note that Felony Rape carries a possible death penalty, life or 10-20 years imprisonment.

I really figured you'd have had a better grasp of legal principles than this Andy.
[User Picture]From: notgruntled
2011-02-09 01:54 am (UTC)

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Yes, actually, it is. If you're going to speak about Congress exerting it's power to control people's lives, then you need to examine if Congress can even DO it in the first place. You don't decide based on JUST if it's a good idea. You decide also based on IF Congress may do what it wilt.

The government funds health care. Whether that is constitutional is outside the scope of this discussion, though I realize it's your second-favorite topic. I'm just a bit surprised you didn't work in firearms somehow.

Use of roofies would in fact be forcible rape, in Georgia, Felony Rape (16-6-1).

Federal law also applies to 49 other states and the District of Columbia, notwithstanding whether the courts would agree with your interpretation of the Georgia statute.

Girl A is 1 day before her age of consent birthday. She has sex with BF who is over the age of consent. This is violent to you?

Girl A is 1 day before her ninth birthday. Is this violent to you?

So, it looks like incest was covered as a separate grouping as was if the woman was a minor and in the case of statutory rape.

Minor victims of incest are covered. Incest victims over the age of consent are not, nor are statutory rape victims whose rapist is not a relative -- a case when, according to you, the crime is not forcible. If a twelve-year-old is impregnated by her mother's live-in boyfriend, she would not be covered by this exception.

You'll find that if you look at actual legal code, that the term forcible rape is very easily synonymous with FELONY rape. If I'm not mistaken, this is old English Common law basics, probably something that MOST other states have in common.

You'll find if you look at the actual legal code, your opinion is not considered authoritative. Legal language has specific meaning, and the fact that you consider the terms synonymous does not mean that it will be held so in every court in every state.

"Forcible rape" is not a term with a specific legal meaning. Its application, aside from being cruel to the victims who were "asking for it," would be a litigation nightmare.

It is a form of sexual assault. Assault implies force does it not?

Usually, but not necessarily. Roget's Thesaurus is also not authoritative on the statutory meaning of words.

Here's the legal code for Ga since you clearly didn't actually research this point at all, but then noone else complaining about the Forcible Rape language did either.

That's one down and fifty to go. The bill under consideration is federal law; the law of Georgia is irrelevant to the rest of the country.

I really figured you'd have had a better grasp of legal principles than this Andy.

I really figured you knew better than to be so snide and condescending, Ryan.

[User Picture]From: montieth
2011-02-09 04:09 am (UTC)

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I'm just a bit surprised you didn't work in firearms somehow.

I don't need the stalking horse here. It is useful sometimes to point out how if one right is restricted in such a way that people aregue as no restriction at all, why is it a restriction elsewhere?

Would a $200 Federal Tax on abortions be kosher?

Federal law also applies to 49 other states and the District of Columbia, notwithstanding whether the courts would agree with your interpretation of the Georgia statute.


Rape, as a crime, is VERY old law. It's based on English Common Law by my understanding. That means it's going to be very consistent with what I have postulated above. Force or threat of force for compliance, sexual penetration, sometimes just sexual contact, lack of consent. It doesn't matter if drugs are used or not. The use of the incapacitating agent to remove the victims ability to express consent (or not as it were)

At random that I can find statutes on line quickly and find the relevant section. It appears as Felony Rape or Sexual Assault usually.
New York appears to dovetail.
Washington matches too.
Texas as well.
Maine.
Colorado

Need I go on? Find a single state where use of a drug to incapacitate a victim is not indicative of the Felony Rape or Felony Sexual Assault statute and by default, a crime of force.

If a twelve-year-old is impregnated by her mother's live-in boyfriend, she would not be covered by this exception.

That would depends on if it was statutory rape or felony rape. Felony rape yes. Statutory rape, no.

Usually, but not necessarily. Roget's Thesaurus is also not authoritative on the statutory meaning of words.

I think the path is "statute" -> "Blackstones Law Dictionary" -> "Dictionary". My attorney did just this when he was trying to determine what the county meant by "business vehicle" when I was being charged with having one. He and the Judge both settled on plan language. Funny that.

Even so, HR.3 was amended to remove the forcible term. Even before you wrote the above. I've said before elsewhere, I'll say it again, it was in-artful language but hardly the slam dunk "rape free for all" everyone wants to claim it was. What's the Democrats excuse for the 2000 plus page _enacted_ PATIENT PROTECTION AND AFFORDABLE CARE ACT? OR, like all other things do they get a pass on having their way with the citizenry?

I really figured you knew better than to be so snide and condescending

It goes along with how Republicans are "perfectly willing to restrict women's access to health care." Because, if someone else isn't paying for it, it's being taken away.
[User Picture]From: notgruntled
2011-02-10 04:55 am (UTC)

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The New York statute specifies rape "by forcible compulsion" as one of the definitions of rape. The clearest definition of "forcible rape" would be that subsection, to the exclusion of the others.

I am not interested in arguing the definition -- merely making the point that it is not at all clear and consistent. It is pretty clear that the provision of HR3 would have excluded statutory rape, at the least.

>>>If a twelve-year-old is impregnated by her mother's live-in boyfriend, she would not be covered by this exception.

That would depends on if it was statutory rape or felony rape. Felony rape yes. Statutory rape, no.


Statutory rape is covered by current law. It would be excluded by the language in HR3. There is the redefinition of rape that you have been saying isn't there.

I think the path is "statute" -> "Blackstones Law Dictionary" -> "Dictionary". My attorney did just this when he was trying to determine what the county meant by "business vehicle" when I was being charged with having one. He and the Judge both settled on plan language.

And you spent how much time and money fighting that? Did you not argue at the time that the law was maddeningly imprecise, and that having to legislate the definition was unduly burdensome? Is it not reasonable to expect at least the degree of linguistic precision in a federal health care law that you demand from a local zoning statute?

Even so, HR.3 was amended to remove the forcible term. Even before you wrote the above.

That would be why I mentioned that fact in my original post.

It goes along with how Republicans are "perfectly willing to restrict women's access to health care." Because, if someone else isn't paying for it, it's being taken away.

If the government withholds funding; does its best to discourage employers from providing private insurance coverage; and exempts abortion from the laws requiring other forms of life-saving care, the sum effect is to restrict access. That is why I listed all three items as premises leading to the conclusion.

[User Picture]From: leezechka
2011-02-09 03:55 am (UTC)

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"carnal knowledge in rape occurs when there is any penetration of the female sex organ by the male sex organ."

Good to know that it is not rape if you use another body part or foreign object.

you can assume that forcible rape means felony rape, but the law does not assume, it is literal.
[User Picture]From: montieth
2011-02-09 04:41 am (UTC)

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No, it's still rape, just a different charge. That would then in this Georgia's case, be aggravated sodomy (16-6-2) the next statute down from rape. The penalty is 10 years to 30 years or life.

In the case of a rapist who didn't confine him/herself to just rape would then have a charge of Felony Rape and Aggravated Sodomy Which could be 10-30 + 10-20 years, two life sentences, or death.

Is that sufficiently harsh?

you can assume that forcible rape means felony rape, but the law does not assume, it is literal.

One expects SOME translation from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. I also assume that when they mean "Rape" as a crime, they do have the sense to infer that means Sexual Assault in such states that have a statutory offense of Sexual Assault and not rape.

I don't suppose everyone will get upset that Colorado doesn't have a charge of "rape" on the books. "Coloradans don't think rape is a crime? So they hate women!"
[User Picture]From: leezechka
2011-02-08 09:19 pm (UTC)

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Andy,you continue to suffer this insane feminist delusion that women are people! They are little children and cannot possibly be trusted with making decisions for themselves. Now, if planned parenthood provided really important services like viagra dispensing and penis enlargements they would be necessary, but everyone knows birth control pills are just for dirty whores and that women only pretend to take them because really they just want to trap a man into marrying them or paying child support.

Also every single case in those hidden videos, the planned parenthood employees called the authorities on as soon as the "pimp" left the building. If it had been a real pimp, I would humor them too, to get the girls in to be able to rescue them and to call the authorities without the guy thinking I had.
[User Picture]From: oddprofessor
2011-02-08 11:40 pm (UTC)

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You know? If you refuse and abortion, and the woman dies, then the baby dies too. So, either way, dead baby, either way someone made a decision that resulted in death, but the Republican-approved decision results in two deaths instead of just one.
[User Picture]From: montieth
2011-02-09 12:38 am (UTC)

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The "Protect Life Act," HR358, would allow hospital emergency rooms to refuse to terminate a pregnancy -- even if that refusal kills the pregnant woman. This would be, as far as I know, the first law that allows refusal of life-saving care in the name of "conscience," let alone in the name of "protecting life."


Hmm, you know what, that's a proposed modification of the PATIENT PROTECTION AND AFFORDABLE CARE ACT. What did you folks on the left expect? You want to put congress in charge of your health care but don't want them making decisions you don't like?

I predicted this would happen months ago. When I was arguing against the Health Care act. Go figure, it took less than a month for the religious right to to start working little barriers like this into the system and everyone is surprised?

Did no-one learn ANYTHING from COPA II?


Oh, and reading HR 358, I'm not getting the effect that you describe.

The summary I have found describes it thusly:

Official Summary

1/20/2011--Introduced.Protect Life Act - Amends the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) to prohibit federal funds from being to used to cover any part of the costs of any health plan that includes coverage of abortion services. (Currently, federal funds cannot be used for abortion services and plans receiving federal funds must keep federal funds segregated from any funds for abortion services.) Requires any qualified health benefit plan offered through an Exchange that includes coverage for abortions to also offer a qualified health benefit plan through the Exchange that is identical in every respect except that it does not cover abortions. Prohibits a federal agency or program and any state or local government that receives federal financial assistance under PPACA from requiring any health plan created or regulated under PPACA to discriminate against any institutional or individual health care entity based on the entity's refusal to undergo training in the performance of induced abortions, require or provide such training, or refer for such training. Creates a cause of action for any violations of the abortion provisions of PPACA. Gives federal courts jurisdiction to prevent and redress actual or threatened violations of such provisions by issuing any form of legal or equitable relief, including injunctions and orders preventing the disbursement of all or a portion of federal financial assistance until the prohibited conduct has ceased. Gives standing to institute an action to affected health care entities and the Attorney General. Requires the Secretary of Health and Human Services to designate the Director of the Office for Civil Rights of the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) to receive and investigate complaints alleging a violation of PPACA abortion provisions. Requires the Director of the Office of Personnel Management (OPM) to ensure that no multistate qualified health plan offered in an Exchange provides coverage of abortion services.
[User Picture]From: notgruntled
2011-02-09 02:16 am (UTC)

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Oh, and reading HR 358, I'm not getting the effect that you describe.

Section (2)(g)(1), headed "NONDISCRIMINATION." The "discrimination" in question is a law requiring that any hospital that receives federal funds provide all necessary emergency care. The bill exempts abortions from that requirement. Hospitals are not required to perform abortions under any circumstances, and they are not required to refer a patient to someone who will.

From: (Anonymous)
2011-02-09 03:37 am (UTC)

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"restrict women's access to health care" is the damnedest way of spelling "kill women" I've ever seen.
[User Picture]From: montieth
2011-02-09 04:11 am (UTC)

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"restrict women's access to health care" is the damnedest way of spelling "kill women" I've ever seen.

Best way to do that is to put Dr. Kermit Gosnell in charge of planned parent hood. That or DHHS. Oh, wait, Dr Gosnell's probably ideal as a Democratic appointee isn't he?
[User Picture]From: brooklynite
2011-02-10 12:33 am (UTC)

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(That was me above. I wasn't logged in.)

Gosnell's was a practice that could only flourish in circumstances in which poor women didn't have access to safe, affordable, legal, ethical abortion services. He wasn't a creation of the pro-choice movement, he was a creation of the pro-life movement.
[User Picture]From: montieth
2011-02-10 12:43 am (UTC)

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Ok. What is missing here? Aside from Dr Gosnell's facility, there are no other offices where there are safe, affordable, legal and ethical abortion clinics?

Gosnell is a monster that was being a horrible doctor. Period. You can't blame his methods and lack of care of his patients on people stopping procedures because if that were the case there would be no other alternative places there in the same city.
[User Picture]From: brooklynite
2011-02-10 01:09 am (UTC)

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The vast majority of abortion clinics only do early term abortions, and anti-choice pressure, regulation, and outright terrorism have a lot to do with that. Karnamaya Mongar, the woman who was killed by Gosnell's staff's incompetence, was turned away by two legitimate clinics before she wound up on his doorstep, because the abortion she sought -- though legal -- wasn't something they were able to provide.
[User Picture]From: montieth
2011-02-10 04:55 am (UTC)

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The vast majority of abortion clinics only do early term abortions, and anti-choice pressure, regulation, and outright terrorism have a lot to do with that.

Could that also be because a great many doctors don't want that ethical issue laying over their heads? Not that I think that there should be a mandate that women NOT obtain abortions where they want, but don't you think there is an ethical issue with late and VERY late term abortions? Not to say that it outweighs the mothers rights.

I'd argue Gosnell's incompetence. He was in charge, his responsibility. It wasn't just his staff.

Who turned her away and why? From clinics in Maryland and Virginia? How does this bear on Gosnells and the greater Philly area?
[User Picture]From: notgruntled
2011-02-10 05:04 am (UTC)

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Could that also be because a great many doctors don't want that ethical issue laying over their heads?

Could be. It could also be that they don't want pickets outside their clinics. It might also be that they don't want to be decried as a murderer by Bill O'Reilly and then FUCKING SHOT DEAD IN CHURCH IN FRONT OF THEIR FAMILIES.